SJ vs. Fly Debate

[scrum]

The SJ vs. Fly Debate

In the end it really just comes down to a playstyle concept thing.

But to debate it here are my reasons to take Fly over SJ.

1) If you don't need Acrobatics why take it?
2) Combat Jumping only gives a minimal Defense and somewhat negligible mobility and jumping distance. Yes it does give Immob resistance, but that really never bothers me, the immob durations are usually short anyway + I can still fight while immobilized. Most melee toons have Immob resistance anyway.
3) Air Superiority is the best Power pool attack in the game, and doesn't need to be slotted heavily to be effective.
4) Jumpkick SUCKS
5) Hover is anti knockback (a 1/2 sec knockback animation).
6) Yep SJ is fast and fun. But how many times have you, by mistake, fallen into a mob either due to carelessness & lag?
7) Though flying is not as fast, I never died once in 2 years flying.
8) Flying is cool. Superman uses it!
9) Off hand, other than the Hulk what other Superhero uses SJ? Hulk is Stupid and Green. Most use Fly or SS.
10) Yes, the big one - After that 30-min mission and setting the next one. I put on Auto Pilot, get-up, stretch, get some food, a drink, have a smoke, take a pee. Then sit down and enter the mission. I like those 2 to 3 minute brakes away from the keyboard
11) I'm not as coordinated as the rest of you but I can't type/chat while Super Jumping all that well. Must be my limited dexterity.
12) Super Jumping around COT maps and those Multi Level caves just plain sucks IMO.


Should I go on?

Like I said its a playstyle/concept thing

But lets debate!

[mistawac]

Here is why I say take it:

1) It's the most useful travel power in the game. You can easily make your way through The Hollows, Skyway, Boomtown, and all other randomly leveled maps. SS makes the difficult and Fly takes forever.

2) Once you've had SJ for 20+ levels you get used to it and can easily jump around CoT and other cave maps. I do it and so does Nikk and it's quite effective.

3) Yes I've fallen into mobs before. Yes I've died due to it, but very rarely. I've since learned to leap off of buildings when in zones I shouldn't be leaping around in due to low level.

4) Spiderman has SJ. Granted he uses his web-slinging more, he still has SJ. Any Spiderman game has a button or ability that allows spiderman to leap really far. Even the first movie shows the radioactive spider that bit him as having increased leaping (I've seen that movie about 70 times, no joke)

5) Granted hover is anti-knockback, so is combat jump AND combat jump takes 10x less end that hover does.

6) Jumpkick does suck and I don't know, maybe Air Superiority is a great power, I've never gotten it and really haven't needed it yet.

7) For scrappers, when stacked with our already high defenses that CJ bonus helps. Even with other characters sporting tough and weave that helps. I have Tough and Weave and the bonus makes those two that much more effective. Every little bit counts

8) Hulk isn't stupid....

I agree too that it's a playstyle thing. You like getting up to stretch while going to missions, I do that while zoning. I'm also younger than you and can go longer without the need to stretch. I mean, playing CoH can be really bad on the muscles. Don't want to pull a hami or anything ;-)

[Budokai]

As it pertains to falling into things, I'd say I've fallen into more mobs because of an end drop from the uber-high cost of flight more than I've acci-SJ'd into a bad group.

Superman is able "to leap tall buildings in a single bound" so he's got both! There goes that one out the window. He doesn't use SJ enough though, because he's worried everyone will realize how awesome he is and call for him getting nerfed.

SJ never needs slotting to be effective. Flight needs end reducers/flight speeds to be effective, especially early on, when you're already thin on slots.

Flying can be easier on certain maps, but there is so many attacks, especially in PVP, that have a -fly component.

Hover is not combat friendly, especially in PVP. Moving around....so.....freaking....uber...slow....is what hover does, whereas CJ just gives you a handy +jump and +def AND allows you to keep moving at a decent pace, as well as stopping immobs.

CJ+Hurdle= poor mans travel power. I remember getting these early on, and it makes life a lot easier, especially in Hollows and Perez.

FLY IS SLOW. So slow. So so so so slow. SJ is fast. Get there first with SJ, then go take a potty break, ya old man

[mistawac]

I'm pretty much seconding all of what Budokai just said...

[Budokai]

My arse does need more kissing...

[scrum]

1) You spend less than 1% of your toons career in the pre-travel/Level 14 timeframe. He'll you can get to level 14 in 14 hours or less.
2) Fly only needs an end reducer pre Stamina. Even without an end reducer having DOs you can make it 1/2 way across IP. Still thats pre-level 20/Stamina. Less than 5% of your toons career.
3) Superman leaps over the tall building and continues by flying into outer space.
4) Flying and Hover with Gut Wrench as I recall PAWNED Marlow in PvP.
5) Flying is straight line distance not around buildings (Dark Astoria kinda sucks for SJers dosen't it?)
6) Flight pool is good for Hammi Raids (PA Drop teams, Mitos clearing)
7) Flight is necessary for the Shadow Shard.
8) Searching for Glowies or AVs on Outdoor maps (Nightstar is a good example).
9) Avoiding the effects of Caltrops, Quicksand, Earthquake, and other goundbased debuffs.
10) Range blasting against non-flying Foes (Marlow in No.#4)
11) Group Fly is a team buff (Hammi Raids, Shadow Shard, Ground Based Debuffs).
12) I can never once think of a time where any of my toons who had flight said I wish I had SJ. But my toons who have SJ often times wish they had Fly.

Should I go On!

[Budokai]

You may spend less than 1% without a travel power, but getting around Hollows or PP makes CJ+hurdle a mighty combo when it's needed.

SJ -never- needs slotting help. Not just "pre-stamina" or "pre-SO's." It is good to go uber out of the box, straight at level 14. I've never made it halfway across anywhere and ran out of end.

It wasn't the flight that owned Marlowe, it was the PFF. And let's not forget, he was 13 levels below you, i.e. before he gets his epic pool powers, which are a huge help for scrappers in PVP. Also, I'm going to respec into Air Superioirty, which totally negates the flying advantage. There is no -jump power I could get to stop you. (Web grenades, quicksand, and a few others can, but none are available to a scrapper, and those also have a -fly component.)

SJ can go in the same straight line that fly can. Those fog-hidden builds in DA are just as much a pain to a flyer as they are to a SJ'er. Unless you're flying way high, in which case you didn't fly in a straight line, you went way up.

I can find glowies easily on outdoor maps. Bounding from rooftop to rooftop is fun and doesn't take a whole lot of coordination if you've done it more than once.

Flight isn't neccesary for the shadow shard. It's helpful, yes, but not neccesary. I've done a grand total of 10 Shadow Shard TF's, and never have I done it with someone who had flight. By that time, someone else has TP or group flight. TP is a much faster and more helpful option in the shard than flight is.

Ranged blasting for PVP is nice, but anyone who's PVP'd long enough knows there is an asston of -fly powers out there. That's why "kiting" has become the strategy of the masses for most PVP. (Kiting is hurdl+CJ with autojump on).

Group flight does kick ass for hami raids, I'll give you that. But back to the 1% ratio. How much time do you spend Hami-raiding? I know you hate it, and there are many out there who never have and never will go. Also, most raid leaders have Kineticists spam IR, which gives a SJ boost. Being the melee toon at a Hami raid, I get more IR than Group Flight, and it's a lot easier to manuever.

Every time I have flight, all I can think of is "So slow. So much end. Must. Take. SJ." Case in point, my PB. I'm gonna go hasten/SS just cause I can't stand the pokey-end-eating-fest that is Flight.

[scrum]

In PvP most have two travel powers and all are viable. You don't need end reducers in Fly once you have Stamina. And so what if you can beat a flyer to a mission by 30-sec.

I'd say what we all just debated, all the pros and cons pretty much sums it all up. So for any of you all who wonder what to take, here you have it.

Fly Rules though.

[mistawac]

Super Jump rules more than Fly. And BTW...I've beaten fliers to missions by up to 2 minutes, and we left near the same spot at the same time.

Once again, Super Jump owns Fly.

[scrum]

Wanna race?

[machismo]

ROFL to evryones debate on this issue.

Personally, I still think the best travel power is no travel power at all, take Kinetics instead. Of course, you have be a troller or defender for this. But Kinetics has 2 travel powers built right into the power set. Siphon Speed -- which also slows enemies and increases attack rate and end recovery. And Inertial Reduction -- which is a bit slower than SJ, but you jump higher and farther. PLus, IR also affects anyone in radius.

You have all neglected one travel power completely. TP. I used to hate it. Talk about falling into enemy mobs -- sheesh -- just a little lag and you can't get that next tp off and thats all she wrote. So I got around this (with my troller, Synyrgy) by taking hover with TP. This works well, but it means taking a power which really has no other use. BUT THEN -- the bind master, Budokai, taught me a nifty little bind for TP.

/bind shiftl+1 powexec_name teleport (I hope i remembered it correctly, if not then maybe BUd will be kind enough to correct me).

Then you just hit shift then point and left click to TP. If you really want fast, TP is the way to go. Plus it's also handy for escaping battles that go badly (although I usually forget I have tp when I'm in a battle).

Teleport Foe is also very useful. I used to think it was completely lame "Why would anybody want that." But then bdblade showed me the value of pulling with tp. And it's very gratifying to tp back a foe that thinks he is running away.

[mistawac]

Hrm....Forgot about TP...I think my next toon is getting TP because I've never had it before...how's the end usage on that?

[Budokai]

End usage is very heavy in the early levels, higher than fly. But it's way faster. TP'ers will get there first, but be out of end, and SJ'ers will be a close second. Then they can all sit down and have a cup of tea, talk about the weather, play a game of chess or two, and then the fliers show up.


And yes, I'll race you across IP any day of the week. Or talos. Or any zone but FBZ, the one zone where I concede Flight is superior to SJ. But honestly, no one goes to FBZ anyways.

And remember, my SJ is unslotted. Can't beat that return.

[mistawac]

Bah...TP is end heavy...I'll scrap that until I have Stamina maybe...who knows..

[scrum]

Ill race you accross IP, but the race I challenged to was beating a flyer to a mission by 2 minutes. So I get a 2 min headstart.

Who cares about getting to the mission first anyway, most times people need to buy, sell or say brb once they get to the mission door anyway. So 2 minutes really dosent matter anyway.

Also most of my flyers have a movement boost to them anyway (AM, PB, SS) so they are not 3 slotted. My Tanks don't care, go ahead start the mission if your that anxious.